{"id":2561,"date":"2018-01-17T21:51:47","date_gmt":"2018-01-18T05:51:47","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/hobart-community-church.org\/?p=2561"},"modified":"2018-01-17T21:51:47","modified_gmt":"2018-01-18T05:51:47","slug":"revelation-4","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/hobart-community-church.org\/?p=2561","title":{"rendered":"Revelation 4"},"content":{"rendered":"

Questions to ask in Revelation Four<\/u><\/strong>:<\/p>\n

Intro:\u00a0 \u201cI have often heard the view that the church needs to go through the tribulation so that she will be purified before eternity. This is a tragic view that undercuts our current position and standing as even now, the purified, forgiven, redeemed, blood-washed bride of Christ.\u201d<\/p>\n

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, \u201cCome up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.\u201d 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. 3 And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads. 5 Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; 6 and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind. 7 The first creature was like a lion, and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle. 8 And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, <\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cHoly, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n

9 And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 \u201cWorthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n

    \n
  1. What does this portion of Scripture reveal about Jesus?<\/li>\n
  2. What does this portion of Scripture reveal about the church?<\/li>\n
  3. What does this portion of Scripture reveal about the world?<\/li>\n
  4. What does this portion of Scripture reveal about the Evil One?<\/li>\n
  5. Can you see Christ\u2019s Mercy towards humanity in the passage?<\/li>\n
  6. Can you see Christ\u2019s judgment of disobedience?<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n

    PreTrib Support for Elders<\/u><\/strong> being the church:<\/p>\n

    The second sighting of John, in verse 4, is\u00a0he presence of twenty-four thrones upon\u00a0which sat twenty-four elders.\u00a0As we attempt to identify who these twenty-four\u00a0elders are, it is helpful to know that the number\u00a0twenty-four is used in scripture as a representative\u00a0number \u2013 a number that represents a host of people.\u00a0For instance, there were twenty-four officers of\u00a0the sanctuary representing the twenty-four divisions\u00a0of the Old Testament priests \u2013 a number that\u00a0represented several thousand priests. There were also\u00a0twenty-four divisions of singers in the temple \u2013\u00a0representing several mass choirs (I Chronicles 25).\u00a0\u2022 This has led some to believe that these\u00a0twenty-four elders represent Israel.\u00a0The major challenge with this view is that Israel\u00a0is about to undergo national judgment and salvation\u00a0which comes during the tribulation \u2013 throughout Revelation chapters 6-19.\u00a0These elders are victorious, crowned men and the\u00a0events are yet to take place in which Israel is to be\u00a0redeemed. Israel is yet to be rewarded.
    \n\u2022 Others believe that these twenty-four\u00a0represent two groups of representatives \u2013 the\u00a0twelve apostles and the twelve sons of Israel.\u00a0It makes for nice mathematics, but this group\u00a0appears, not as a combination of two groups, but as a\u00a0unified group of the same makeup.\u00a0Furthermore, if they were the twelve apostles,\u00a0John would have seen himself on one of the thrones,\u00a0yet he writes of this sighting with a detached view.
    \n\u2022 Some believe that these elders represent\u00a0believers who are martyred during the\u00a0tribulation; that these are tribulation saints.\u00a0The problem with this view is that when the
    \ntribulation saints do appear in chapter 7, the elders\u00a0are already present.\u00a0Maybe you are thinking, \u201cWhat does it matter\u00a0who they are?\u201d\u00a0It matters, as you will see, so just be patient. You\u00a0sat through six years of Romans \u2013 you can wait ten\u00a0minutes for this.
    \n\u2022 Others say they are angels seated near the\u00a0throne of God, designed to worship Him.\u00a0This is actually an attractive perspective, and one\u00a0that is not out of context with this sighting of heaven.\u00a0One of the problems, however, is that angels are\u00a0never called elders or \u201cpresbuteroi\u201d. This is the term\u00a0for the leader in the New Testament church, which is\u00a0translated \u201celders\u201d.\u00a0\u00a0Paul wrote to Timothy saying,\u00a0Let the elders [the \u201cpresbuteroi\u201d] who rule\u00a0well be considered worthy of double honor,\u00a0especially those who labor in preaching and\u00a0teaching. (I Timothy 5:17)\u00a0This was a term in the New Testament for church\u00a0leadership. Here in heaven\u2019s court, there are\u00a0twenty-four \u201cpresbuteroi\u201d sitting upon their thrones.\u00a0By the way, the word \u201cpresbuteroi\u00a0)\u201d gives us our English transliterated\u00a0word, \u201cPresbyterian\u201d.<\/p>\n

    Another difficulty of believing these elders are\u00a0angels is that angels are never shown wearing\u00a0\u201cstephanos\u00a0\u201d \u2013 a victor\u2019s crown.\u00a0\u00a0A \u201cstephanos,\u201d in the ancient Olympic Games, was a crown given to the champion as a bestowal of\u00a0honor to him and to his god.\u00a0In fact, the victor\u2019s hometown would hold a\u00a0celebration upon his return and at this festival, the\u00a0victorious athlete would present his crown in the\u00a0temple to his patron god.\u00a0\u00a0This only adds to my belief that these elders\u00a0represent the church \u2013 the church, raptured prior to\u00a0the tribulation, now praising God in the court of\u00a0heaven and before the throne of God.\u00a0Notice their lyrics in Revelation 4:11, as they\u00a0sing, Worthy are you, our Lord and God . . .\u00a0This is personal, possessive worship.\u00a0The promise of Christ to the church has come\u00a0true. He promised the church in His letters that they\u00a0would be robed in white garments (Revelation 3:5\u00a0and 3:18); that they would be rewarded with crowns\u00a0upon their heads (Revelation 3:11);\u00a0that they would be seated on thrones \u2013 a picture of\u00a0the victorious church promised in Revelation 3:21\u00a0and seen again in Revelation 20:4a, which reads,\u00a0Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was\u00a0committed. . . .\u00a0The apostle Paul left no doubt who this would be\u00a0when he wrote,
    \n. . . do you not know that the saints will judge\u00a0the world? . . . (I Corinthians 6:2a)\u00a0 These twenty-four are not angels; not the twelve\u00a0apostles and the twelve sons of Israel; not the\u00a0tribulation saints. Due to their garments and their\u00a0crowns and the thrones, which are specifically\u00a0promised during the church age to the redeemed, and\u00a0due to their personal worship of their Lord and God,\u00a0these represent the company of the redeemed \u2013 you\u00a0and me \u2013 worshiping the Lord following the rapture\u00a0of the church.<\/p>\n

     <\/p>\n

    Mid-Trib Position for 24 Elders<\/u><\/strong>: is not the church<\/p>\n

     <\/p>\n

    In chapter 5, there is the use of pronouns that imply that the 24 elders are different than those named to be a Kingdom of priests.\u00a0 \u201cWorthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them<\/strong> to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they<\/strong> will reign upon the earth.\u201d Emphasis Added<\/em>.\u00a0 The position says that the 24 elders are different than the ones who were made to be a kingdom and priests to our God.<\/p>\n

    The problem with the premise in this case is that if the 24 Elders are redeemed, it does not logically follow that they represent the Church raptured before the tribulation. So at this stage there are 2 major problems with this theory. One it is questionable as to whether the 24 elders are or are not redeemed. Second, if we accept that they are, we still have a long way to go in proving that they represent the raptured Church. There is a third problem as well. It is not just the 24 Elders that sing, it is also the 4 living creatures. These 4 living creatures are mentioned by the Prophets as angelic beings in\u00a0Eze 1:10<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0Eze 10:14<\/a>. It is also obvious contextually throughout the book of Revelation that the 4 living creatures are angelic beings. How then can they be redeemed and sing the same song as the 24 Elders?<\/p>\n

     <\/p>\n

    Huge discussion about the support for pre-trib rapture.\u00a0 And the guy supports his position well, if not arrogantly.\u00a0 But it\u2019s a long read and impossible to pull out of that long discussion a shorter version of his position.\u00a0 https:\/\/nopretrib.com\/who-are-the-24-elders-in-revelation-56-10\/<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

    Questions to ask in Revelation Four: Intro:\u00a0 \u201cI have often heard the view that the church needs to go through the tribulation so that she will be purified before eternity. This is a tragic view that undercuts our current position …<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[129],"tags":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/hobart-community-church.org\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2561"}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/hobart-community-church.org\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/hobart-community-church.org\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/hobart-community-church.org\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/hobart-community-church.org\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=2561"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"http:\/\/hobart-community-church.org\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2561\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":2562,"href":"http:\/\/hobart-community-church.org\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2561\/revisions\/2562"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/hobart-community-church.org\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=2561"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/hobart-community-church.org\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=2561"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/hobart-community-church.org\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=2561"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}