Questions to ask in Revelation Four:
Intro: “I have often heard the view that the church needs to go through the tribulation so that she will be purified before eternity. This is a tragic view that undercuts our current position and standing as even now, the purified, forgiven, redeemed, blood-washed bride of Christ.”
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. 3 And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads. 5 Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; 6 and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind. 7 The first creature was like a lion, and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle. 8 And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say,
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.”
9 And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”
- What does this portion of Scripture reveal about Jesus?
- What does this portion of Scripture reveal about the church?
- What does this portion of Scripture reveal about the world?
- What does this portion of Scripture reveal about the Evil One?
- Can you see Christ’s Mercy towards humanity in the passage?
- Can you see Christ’s judgment of disobedience?
PreTrib Support for Elders being the church:
The second sighting of John, in verse 4, is he presence of twenty-four thrones upon which sat twenty-four elders. As we attempt to identify who these twenty-four elders are, it is helpful to know that the number twenty-four is used in scripture as a representative number – a number that represents a host of people. For instance, there were twenty-four officers of the sanctuary representing the twenty-four divisions of the Old Testament priests – a number that represented several thousand priests. There were also twenty-four divisions of singers in the temple – representing several mass choirs (I Chronicles 25). • This has led some to believe that these twenty-four elders represent Israel. The major challenge with this view is that Israel is about to undergo national judgment and salvation which comes during the tribulation – throughout Revelation chapters 6-19. These elders are victorious, crowned men and the events are yet to take place in which Israel is to be redeemed. Israel is yet to be rewarded.
• Others believe that these twenty-four represent two groups of representatives – the twelve apostles and the twelve sons of Israel. It makes for nice mathematics, but this group appears, not as a combination of two groups, but as a unified group of the same makeup. Furthermore, if they were the twelve apostles, John would have seen himself on one of the thrones, yet he writes of this sighting with a detached view.
• Some believe that these elders represent believers who are martyred during the tribulation; that these are tribulation saints. The problem with this view is that when the
tribulation saints do appear in chapter 7, the elders are already present. Maybe you are thinking, “What does it matter who they are?” It matters, as you will see, so just be patient. You sat through six years of Romans – you can wait ten minutes for this.
• Others say they are angels seated near the throne of God, designed to worship Him. This is actually an attractive perspective, and one that is not out of context with this sighting of heaven. One of the problems, however, is that angels are never called elders or “presbuteroi”. This is the term for the leader in the New Testament church, which is translated “elders”. Paul wrote to Timothy saying, Let the elders [the “presbuteroi”] who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. (I Timothy 5:17) This was a term in the New Testament for church leadership. Here in heaven’s court, there are twenty-four “presbuteroi” sitting upon their thrones. By the way, the word “presbuteroi )” gives us our English transliterated word, “Presbyterian”.
Another difficulty of believing these elders are angels is that angels are never shown wearing “stephanos ” – a victor’s crown. A “stephanos,” in the ancient Olympic Games, was a crown given to the champion as a bestowal of honor to him and to his god. In fact, the victor’s hometown would hold a celebration upon his return and at this festival, the victorious athlete would present his crown in the temple to his patron god. This only adds to my belief that these elders represent the church – the church, raptured prior to the tribulation, now praising God in the court of heaven and before the throne of God. Notice their lyrics in Revelation 4:11, as they sing, Worthy are you, our Lord and God . . . This is personal, possessive worship. The promise of Christ to the church has come true. He promised the church in His letters that they would be robed in white garments (Revelation 3:5 and 3:18); that they would be rewarded with crowns upon their heads (Revelation 3:11); that they would be seated on thrones – a picture of the victorious church promised in Revelation 3:21 and seen again in Revelation 20:4a, which reads, Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. . . . The apostle Paul left no doubt who this would be when he wrote,
. . . do you not know that the saints will judge the world? . . . (I Corinthians 6:2a) These twenty-four are not angels; not the twelve apostles and the twelve sons of Israel; not the tribulation saints. Due to their garments and their crowns and the thrones, which are specifically promised during the church age to the redeemed, and due to their personal worship of their Lord and God, these represent the company of the redeemed – you and me – worshiping the Lord following the rapture of the church.
Mid-Trib Position for 24 Elders: is not the church
In chapter 5, there is the use of pronouns that imply that the 24 elders are different than those named to be a Kingdom of priests. “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” Emphasis Added. The position says that the 24 elders are different than the ones who were made to be a kingdom and priests to our God.
The problem with the premise in this case is that if the 24 Elders are redeemed, it does not logically follow that they represent the Church raptured before the tribulation. So at this stage there are 2 major problems with this theory. One it is questionable as to whether the 24 elders are or are not redeemed. Second, if we accept that they are, we still have a long way to go in proving that they represent the raptured Church. There is a third problem as well. It is not just the 24 Elders that sing, it is also the 4 living creatures. These 4 living creatures are mentioned by the Prophets as angelic beings in Eze 1:10 and Eze 10:14. It is also obvious contextually throughout the book of Revelation that the 4 living creatures are angelic beings. How then can they be redeemed and sing the same song as the 24 Elders?
Huge discussion about the support for pre-trib rapture. And the guy supports his position well, if not arrogantly. But it’s a long read and impossible to pull out of that long discussion a shorter version of his position. https://nopretrib.com/who-are-the-24-elders-in-revelation-56-10/